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Quote:only BB has given even the slightest indication that my words are even worthy of consideration.

bad medicine, from an internet pov, to confront the merits of [things]. you get drawn into debate. people cajole and persuade. evidence is offered and reviewed. i find it tedious and inevitably unsatisfying.

i'd rather condemn and mock and get a fury on like that elijah cat and them high priests of baal that one time. it is to the point and easier and darkly gratifying

biggie 4 Wrote:My heart's right there with you, Fayettwuf. (sorry to have made you a wolf in a previous post) In fact, our hearts might well hum in unison. I am reminded of a classic old Warren Zevon song, title forgotten--lyrics go, I was sitting in the Hollywood Hawaian Hotel. I was listening to the air conditioner hum. It went hmm, hmm.....and on into chorale humming heaven.

My head, though, is another matter altogether--too many disturbing though strangely symmetrical facets to get into, but, part of my head tells me that the only salvation for baseball here, is to let it all hang out--let these overpaid entertainers, for that is what they are, do whatever it is they want. They are there to enthrall the masses and to achieve individual and team goals. Go for it---strange new world. Forget role model BS--they are gladiatorial class, and it's pretty damned high in this new caste system, and they need to do what they need to do to achieve, plain and simple. This new dose of the "clear," or whatever these things are called, may not be any worse than the protein shakes doled out by Jack Lalanne in the 50's and 60's.

It's just, man, that this steroid thing might well have been so freakin' prevalent and far-reaching. I shudder--that's what urCh does in situations like this.

Now look, when I start sounding "really off the wall," you'll tell me, won't you?

I was marvelling last night as I watched a double play being turned, that even as swimming marks fall, track and field records are halved over the last 100 years, double play is still a precise thing. The distance between the bases and foot speed of players still make it so that the play must be made flawlessly.
Maybe the future of the game is steroids, man-made body parts and altered field/ballpark dimensions. But leave Ruth, Aaron, Williams etc. out of it.

the sage Mr. Fries,

Quote:Now look, there are 6, maybe 7 of you who have been involved in this thread. I have opened veins and dripped the blood of passion on the keyboard; yet, only BB has given even the slightest indication that my words are even worthy of consideration.

urCh said it better of course but I'll give it another go: meh. Yes you make good points but among the bulleted ones I only agree with the first and the last. As the law-talking guy said, this whole internet thing we're a part of is more interesting for me when it's you know filled with mockery, scathing humor and videos of animals doing things. And has anyone ever really been persuaded by posts on a message board to change his/her mind about an issue/topic? I say thee nay. Not that I want to discourage your casting stones into the void. Just realize what's going on.

Sorry I couldn't respond earlier but I spent the week in Tokyo. I had the chance to catch a baseball game in Yokohama, saw the local Bay Stars fall to the Giants. It wasn't much of a game, 6 of the 7 runs were scored in the first, but the Japanese fans are a real treat to watch. Rally leaders are dispatched by the home and away team to their teams' side in the stadium, and they lead the fans in chants/songs throughout the game. Each batter has his own individual chant, and a good number of the folks participate throughout. Everyone stands when their team's batting, for the whole flippin game. It was both maddening and delightful, and I had a good time.

Didn't think much about Bonds when I was there tho. Take from that what you will.

Oh, and I was around in 99. I was a lot more enthusiastic back then. I remember all sorts of tedious arguments about the flat-tax and true conservatism and affirmative action. It is to groan.

waynehead Wrote:And has anyone ever really been persuaded by posts on a message board to change his/her mind about an issue/topic? I say thee nay. Not that I want to discourage your casting stones into the void. Just realize what's going on.

Has anyone ever been convinced by argument whether on a message board or not. Logic is for naught if your basic premises are rejected.
Casting stones into the void keeps your arm limber. I think everyone knows what is going on.

waynehead Wrote:

Quote:Now look, there are 6, maybe 7 of you who have been involved in this thread. I have opened veins and dripped the blood of passion on the keyboard; yet, only BB has given even the slightest indication that my words are even worthy of consideration.

urCh said it better of course but I'll give it another go: meh. Yes you make good points but among the bulleted ones I only agree with the first and the last. As the law-talking guy said, this whole internet thing we're a part of is more interesting for me when it's you know filled with mockery, scathing humor and videos of animals doing things. And has anyone ever really been persuaded by posts on a message board to change his/her mind about an issue/topic? I say thee nay. Not that I want to discourage your casting stones into the void. Just realize what's going on.

Sorry I couldn't respond earlier but I spent the week in Tokyo. I had the chance to catch a baseball game in Yokohama, saw the local Bay Stars fall to the Giants. It wasn't much of a game, 6 of the 7 runs were scored in the first, but the Japanese fans are a real treat to watch. Rally leaders are dispatched by the home and away team to their teams' side in the stadium, and they lead the fans in chants/songs throughout the game. Each batter has his own individual chant, and a good number of the folks participate throughout. Everyone stands when their team's batting, for the whole flippin game. It was both maddening and delightful, and I had a good time.

Didn't think much about Bonds when I was there tho. Take from that what you will.

Oh, and I was around in 99. I was a lot more enthusiastic back then. I remember all sorts of tedious arguments about the flat-tax and true conservatism and affirmative action. It is to groan.

golly, don't you just hate it when there is a lengthy delay between the time you first posted in a thread and when you finally got around to remembering said post? usually, there are many, many things that have been said - even in a board wasteland such as we have here - that you just cannot respond to all at once.

doesn't mean i won't give her a go, though. never know, might get lucky and actually make some sense for once, although i wouldn't put any money on it if i was one of the unfortunate souls who actually got this far in this message.

embiggens4; you've got an interesting premise, but it's too bad that you're wrong. i'm sorry, but Barry's accomplishments are tainted by his obvious use of HGH/steroids. who cares what Mordecai Brown took? i ain't talking about him. just Barry. i can choose to root that he takes a Brad Lidge heater square on the patella and feel good doing it. i can likewise insist that the man isn't fit to come into the same room as Henry Aaron's jock, much less make physical contact with it.

waynehead was destined for something approaching greatness - in a relative sense of course - the day PB christened him Highschoolhead, and he got all dandered up and birthed (by way of directly ripping off South Park) the Five Assed Monkey. good times. i don't remember much about those days, short of HeelNation's continued insistence at being granted a provisional membership in the FAM, which at the time was mostly kept alive through Sanguine, GBoro Alum, and beowulf. the [].

anyhoo. i'll probably check back on this thread in another fortnight or so, since it might be that long before another interesting thread erupts on its own around here in the Accboards dot com guest bedroom. you know, that room that is used to store the ugly furniture suite given to you by a relative that you can't just bring yourself to throw away and a closet full of clothes you haven't worn since the first Bush administration

Wow, I call 'em out and get practically a 50% turnout--for some reason that seems amazingly good. Not that anyone said much of anything, you understand. Wayne-san says he only agrees with the first and last of my "pointasterisks," which leads me to believe that one of us has problems. Thank God I don't have an unmarried and utsukushi (fn. 1) baby girl around his age to attract his interest.

Fayette can't get over this whole "chemical" thing and Prof is feigning rebellion in his non-commital nature.

Sal is just the "judge," (fn. 2) I guess was always and ever will be. He is, though, "real."

OK, let's go back to sleep now.

FOOTNOTES:
1. Japanese, almost certainly misspelled and means "beautiful."
2. See Judge Holden (I believe) in C. McCarthy's "Blood Meridian."

without re-reading here's my take:

I've gotten more and more put out with baseball over the last 20 years-- the Strikes/stoppages drove it to the periphery and this whole steroid bit has bushed it straight to the brink... but i don't blame the players, i blame the League (sitting in for Society). Because they have not only been complicit in this brand of cheating, they have promoted it. More than turning a blind eye, i think they were more actively complicit in the whole movement b/c of the badly needed pub and return of fan interest in McGwire, Sosa, Bonds and all the puffy little guys like Brady and that dood from the Mariners.

Bonds has become the lightning rod even tho' McGwire, Giambi and Palmeiro have taken some consequences, but it is all a farce as the game/league ran the risk by doing nothing about it seriously until forced to by Congress.

I also think it's ridiculous that you have known scuffers, greasers, corkers and other cheaters in the Hall. You can't wink at one cheater and condemn the others. I'll still think of Aaron as the HR King, but we certainly don't know what those players might have done in a similar environment. Bonds is a HOFer regardless and so many won't regard him as the record holder and then PayRod will surpass him (how do we know HE's clean? I assume he is, but I felt the same about Raffy). Raffy was really the nail in the coffin on this whole absurd act.... I actually believed that finger-pointin' fool and there went by last non-cynical bone.

I don't care for cheaters of any stripe. it's why golf is such a great game. I don't call cheating to win being ultra-competitive; i call it cheating; but the Grand Ol' Game winked at all the big boys and the boys that wanted to be big and gave 'em the go-ahead.

-------------
I blame that dorkhead Bud Selig and his smoky-shuttered cronies

biggie 4 Wrote:Wow, I call 'em out and get practically a 50% turnout--for some reason that seems amazingly good. Not that anyone said much of anything, you understand. Wayne-san says he only agrees with the first and last of my "pointasterisks," which leads me to believe that one of us has problems. Thank God I don't have an unmarried and utsukushi (fn. 1) baby girl around his age to attract his interest.

Fayette can't get over this whole "chemical" thing and Prof is feigning rebellion in his non-commital nature.

Sal is just the "judge," (fn. 2) I guess was always and ever will be. He is, though, "real."

OK, let's go back to sleep now.

FOOTNOTES:
1. Japanese, almost certainly misspelled and means "beautiful."
2. See Judge Holden (I believe) in C. McCarthy's "Blood Meridian."

I don't see how you can read my posts and conclude that I can't get over the ''chemical' thing'. I thought I was fairly clear that integrity of the game is my concern. I had no problem with Aaron being better nourished and trained than Ruth. I am saddened to see records diminished by cheaters (jerks or not). I would have the same reaction to finding than Aaron used a composite bat (okay I probably would not liked the rabbit ball either).
It is not chemicals but unfair comparisons.

Quote:I don't care for cheaters of any stripe. it's why golf is such a great game. I don't call cheating to win being ultra-competitive; i call it cheating

That, kid, as simplistic as it sounds, is a statement so laden with baggage in this specific context, as well as so many other numerous contexts of our daily lives, that I revel that you dared speak it. I'm proud of you for saying it, as I think it makes you somewhat a rarity in you chosen profession. It is this broad stripe definition as "cheating" that I would take issue with--since '04, (what was it Chris Rock said, "how can you be given a speeding ticket for speeding a couple of years ago?") I believe and what of the percentage figures for usage of these substances--what if 70% of the "boys of summer" bit of the bitter fruit. Would that alter the definition for you at all. What would you have done during Prohibition, I wonder.

Now, pretty much everything else you said is "a hunnerd precent on the money," as Uncle Jake used to say. Selig is infinitely more onerous to me than is gladiator Bonds.

I say this, not because I necessarily feel strongly about what I say--it's just that it's a pov that should be given fair consideration. In fact, I think I'm pretty adamant about disliking cheaters myself--otoh, when an action is prevalent within an industry to the extent that it's winked and nodded at, then it can often be unfair to blame individuals.

Fayette--sorry to have misinterpreted your stance--would you really go all "downers" on Hank if corked bats came forward? It's just HOW pure you want to be in your position. I realize it's an easy matter to jump on "cheaters" and start trying to uphold the integrity of the Game---one has to carefully think about how much integrity ever WAS there.

Fine lines is all I'm talkin' about, fine lines.

biggie 4 Wrote:

Quote:I don't care for cheaters of any stripe. it's why golf is such a great game. I don't call cheating to win being ultra-competitive; i call it cheating

That, kid, as simplistic as it sounds, is a statement so laden with baggage in this specific context, as well as so many other numerous contexts of our daily lives, that I revel that you dared speak it. I'm proud of you for saying it, as I think it makes you somewhat a rarity in you chosen profession. It is this broad stripe definition as "cheating" that I would take issue with--since '04, (what was it Chris Rock said, "how can you be given a speeding ticket for speeding a couple of years ago?") I believe and what of the percentage figures for usage of these substances--what if 70% of the "boys of summer" bit of the bitter fruit. Would that alter the definition for you at all. What would you have done during Prohibition, I wonder.

Drink.

I don't follow as close as i used to... '04 was the official outlawing? That's why i say i blame MLB moreso; they promoted this nonsense by doing less than nothing for so long. I don't know what Hank or Willie or Jackie or Ted or Stan or Frank would have done ... i doubt that the lot of players was all that much more noble, but then again, I still believe more of them would have been, but 'tis impossible to know. Baseball, armed with enough info YEARS ago, failed to protect its record holders and shoulders the majority of the Blame. Hercules Selig indeed! Bud must be juicin' hard still to make all these games!!!

that story Buzz Peterson told of Michael Jordan cheating to beat his (Buzz') mother at cards always sticks with me when this topic is discussed.... most folks laugh and say "now THAT's competitive!" and i just think... "how pitiful"... at least he was a kid then, but still

Biggie:
Fayette--sorry to have misinterpreted your stance--would you really go all "downers" on Hank if corked bats came forward? It's just HOW pure you want to be in your position. I realize it's an easy matter to jump on "cheaters" and start trying to uphold the integrity of the Game---one has to carefully think about how much integrity ever WAS there.

Fine lines is all I'm talkin' about, fine lines.
No problem, sometimes my position is not clear from my posts. Yes, illegal equipment would in my mind diminish Aaron's accomplishment. I stated early in this something to the effect that I am aware that some of the 300 game winners might have done some things that are not permitted under the rules to a baseball to make it do unexpected things and that does not make me want to petition for asteriks. The lines are not all that fine. IMHO you are correct that there are fine lines and questions of degree. However the difference between a pitch or two when you are tired and taking a banned substance surreptitiously to extend and enhance your productive career is worlds apart.

Fayettewuf Wrote:I stated early in this something to the effect that I am aware that some of the 300 game winners might have done some things that are not permitted under the rules to a baseball to make it do unexpected things and that does not make me want to petition for asteriks. The lines are not all that fine. IMHO you are correct that there are fine lines and questions of degree. However the difference between a pitch or two when you are tired and taking a banned substance surreptitiously to extend and enhance your productive career is worlds apart.

why?

3 things; 1- how do you know what he took after it was banned; 2- you are taking an illegal advantage in either case, how are you distinguishing the effects of the degree; 3 (which maybe should be the first question)- how in the world can you know and state that the greasers were only throwing "a pitch or two when you are tired"?!
You saw Perry and Niekro pitch, right?

In either case, the game has winked, nodded and begrudgingly thrown a little discipline out there. I can't see the big bright line that so many do as far as the effect on performance. In fact, steroids would be much riskier in that regard, i would believe. The difference however, IMO, is the larger issue of more and more younger people taking all kinds of substances not knowing nearly enough about them... that's why Congress got in and drove this thing.

don't know about Niekro but Gaylord Perry, in particular, certainly had a reputation for doctoring the ball. I say "reputation," 'cause perhaps it is that he never actually did anything at all. He did, though, revel in his reputation, as did his fans and, seemingly, most of the rest of the baseball community.

And I would agree, Fayette, that a pitcher wouldn't have to be "tired" to decide that this was a good moment to gain an edge. I would say having the bases loaded in an early inning and needing a strikeout would be the perfect moment.

But, suddenly, now we are interested in protecting the integrity of the Game. So, maybe it is all about "chemicals" or at least chemicals that are taken internally.

No cheaters in golf, eh kid? Are you gonna tell me that you haven't used "winter rules" to improve your lie on a balmy day, or that you failed to reveal that you accidentally grounded your clubhead in a trap? I learned in my early years in that sport that it was not a good idea to lay out a fake sneeze at the same time you're kicking the ball to a slightly better position in the rough though.

biggie 4 Wrote:No cheaters in golf, eh kid? Are you gonna tell me that you haven't used "winter rules" to improve your lie on a balmy day, or that you failed to reveal that you accidentally grounded your clubhead in a trap? I learned in my early years in that sport that it was not a good idea to lay out a fake sneeze at the same time you're kicking the ball to a slightly better position in the rough though.

He don't know me vewwy well, now do he?

I don't play "winter rules" unless it is stated as part of the competition (which it often is, depending on whom you play with).. and if a group wants to do that beyond true winter conditions, you won't find me playing with them very often.

I have hit the wrong ball, i have made mistakes, etc. but I will call them on myself if i'm aware. Not grounding one's club in a trap is a pretty simple thing to do and i can't even think of an advantage of doing so... upsloped hazards can be a more difficult thing, but still not so much.

there are certainly some rules i'm not intimately familiar with but if i were playing matches outside of my own club, i'd brush up on him...and the further up the ranks you go, the more responsible you must be. At the pro tour levels, you would have a miniscule amount of players "seeking to gain advantage" compared to other sports, i believe (e.g., no equivalent of a guy grabbing his opponent's jersey type of thing) except in the area of equipment where i believe the USGA and R&A shoulder the blame for long/belly putters in particular.

golf has some dumb rules too... the spike mark/ball mark distinction?! el stupido. even nicklaus said having to play out of a divot is dumb as well.

kidC Wrote:

Fayettewuf Wrote:I stated early in this something to the effect that I am aware that some of the 300 game winners might have done some things that are not permitted under the rules to a baseball to make it do unexpected things and that does not make me want to petition for asteriks. The lines are not all that fine. IMHO you are correct that there are fine lines and questions of degree. However the difference between a pitch or two when you are tired and taking a banned substance surreptitiously to extend and enhance your productive career is worlds apart.

why?

3 things; 1- how do you know what he took after it was banned; 2- you are taking an illegal advantage in either case, how are you distinguishing the effects of the degree; 3 (which maybe should be the first question)- how in the world can you know and state that the greasers were only throwing "a pitch or two when you are tired"?!
You saw Perry and Niekro pitch, right?

In either case, the game has winked, nodded and begrudgingly thrown a little discipline out there. I can't see the big bright line that so many do as far as the effect on performance. In fact, steroids would be much riskier in that regard, i would believe. The difference however, IMO, is the larger issue of more and more younger people taking all kinds of substances not knowing nearly enough about them... that's why Congress got in and drove this thing.

I saw Perry and Niekro (why would anyone doctor a ball to throw a knuckler?). I don't think they could get away with doctoring a lot of pitches. I think it has been suggested that Perry got a lot of people out with junk because they thought he was loading it. I have heard stories of pitchers wearing rings to slice the cover-Whitey Ford for instance. So sure there have been cheaters. There are hall of famers who threw games; but Joe Jackson will never get in and should never get in.
All that incoherent babble to say, the fact that the line is not razor sharp does not mean there should not be a line. I don't know for sure that Bonds took them after they were banned but the fact that he concealed what he was doing and refuses to come clean suggests that he knew he was cheating.

Quote:I don't play "winter rules" unless it is stated as part of the competition (which it often is, depending on whom you play with).. and if a group wants to do that beyond true winter conditions, you won't find me playing with them very often.

Spoken like a true Zealot, kid. And, you always said you weren't religious. Now, just stay away from the kool-aid provided at the 19th hole unless someone samples it first.

You see, I've always been suspicious of people who were TOO serious about golf.

Quote:I don't know for sure that Bonds took them after they were banned but the fact that he concealed what he was doing and refuses to come clean suggests that he knew he was cheating.

i no longer doubt it, but that^ doesn't persuade me to any kind of feeling.... my bottom line remains. MLB promoted all this and if any of this ever comes to a head, they should step up and admit it.

that's as likely to happen as a Ron Paul Presidency.

Winter rules are for pansies.