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It seems that over the last several years a majority of Americans (if one is to read the polls and watch the news) have come to the mind to retreat to holdouts on Ruby Ridge or Waco or Wherever Mountain, hole up with their stash of gold bars, ammunition, and a few cases of Dinty Moore Stew, refuse to pay taxes, and tell the government to go to hell. OK that's an exaggeration, but its no exaggeration that congress and the executive branch have been polling very low and that the "Tea Party" (whose name evokes the concept of revolt against taxation) has a huge following.

Are we really that badly governed?

Or have we just not the sense to realize how good we have it?

My disgust is as follows:
1.) The propensity of government to try and be all things to all people. I prefer self-reliance and more emphasis on local government. Too many people are now dependent upon the federal teat for too many things. "Wean" is not in the federal repertoire. The Fed cannot either "Wean" itself off of its own size nor can it "wean" off those that are dependent upon it for too many things.
2.) Federal government inefficiency and red tape make me crazy. We've been down this road before and that's all I have to say about that.
3.) Democrats get into office and, unfortunately do what they say they will do.
4.) Republicans get into office and, unfortunately don't do what they say they will do.
5.) Increasingly, the older I get, the less people there are in Washington that I trust or even remotely look up to. To me, that is evident by the pathetically poor choices both major parties give us for major candidates. It is all about "politics" and less about "substance". I respect "substance". "Substance" of which there is none in a major office now in Washington. That has been the case for quite a while now, not just the current administration. In otherwords, the Beltway has morphed from a ring around DC into... shall we say the nation's "orifice".

Having said all that, I abhor the examples of idiots and morons you give like Waco, mountain hold-out Rambo's etc. There are extremists in all groups and ideologies.

Once again as we've discussed on numerous threads. The Federal government has its place and remains the glue that holds all of this liberty together. The Federal Government has done some very good things. But the Federal Government is binding that liberty too tightly thus choking self-determination and the individuals that make up this nation are growing restlessly tired of it. Some get it... some don't.

Quote:3.) Democrats get into office and, unfortunately do what they say they will do.
4.) Republicans get into office and, unfortunately don't do what they say they will do.

That's probably most of the situation in a nutshell. People are mighty tired of hearing the politicos promise, declare themselves "representative of this district", "you (voters) are most important to me and I will uphold your values" only to see a complete 180 within months of the candidate taking his/her position in the Federal government.

Another reason, to me, is the encouraged partisanship....encouraged not only by the political party itself but the "unofficial spokesperson" utilizing the media (radio, internet, this "Tweet" stuff) to roil the pot even more. We are a far more divisive country than any time since 1860 or so.

(03-24-2010 04:15 AM)Tenmile Wrote: [ -> ]Are we really that badly governed?

Tenmile:

In a word: "Yes".

The system has been alterd to the point it is structurally incapable of providing good governance.

we have in reality 15% - 20% unemployment and the only answer on the horizon is socialism (from Democrats; no answer from Republicans except to keep doing what got us to this point).

most those without work don't want to become welfare dependents and most those with work don't want to pay for socialism

not good circumstances and government put us here so of course people are unhappy. this is un-American and Americans don't like it or want it

you know my position: we cannot grow an economy that outsources millions of jobs to cheaper producers. the result is this

the simple answer is in one of the few actually enumerated powers of congress: regulate trade

even the banking thieves are secondary to that

If anything is a problem, it is that we are victims of our own success. The amount of prosperity and freedom we have and the standard of living we enjoy is unparalleled in human history.

(03-24-2010 08:56 AM)ChrisL68 Wrote: [ -> ]If anything is a problem, it is that we are victims of our own success. The amount of prosperity and freedom we have and the standard of living we enjoy is unparalleled in human history.

That's a pretty big generalization and I'm not sure it's correct. Europe is pretty dang nice. Different in many respects but I could live there. What they don't have is the huge underclass we have here. Ironically a lot of their least educated people came here and made succesful lives because of an opportunity to work in blue collar jobs but that opportunity just isn't here in anywhere near the extent now as it was 100 years ago. I guess our least educated could go to China or Mexico to work.

Lack of trust in the government and fear of big brother as the government keeps getting bigger and more involved in areas it wasn't before.

obviously if more people could work and pay their own way we wouldn't need the socialism we're headed toward. at a minimum, even if Obama refuses to address trade deficits, he should have at least prioritized jobs ahead, way, way ahead, of socialized healthcare.

we've tried the free trade way for a decade and lost a decade of job growth, so far. time to consider that it might not quite work like the theory says

what else is there?

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington

Government by its very nature and by neccessity must have some authority over the populace it governs. This authority is the natural enemy to individual liberty. So while government is neccessary for a civilized society, it should always be viewed with a healthy distrust.

(03-24-2010 05:02 AM)Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]Having said all that, I abhor the examples of idiots and morons you give like Waco, mountain hold-out Rambo's etc.

A very dangerous viewpoint. An individual or a group that the current rulers deem as "extremists" or "wacko" should not be subject to persecution or extermination. This idea is the very concept that drove the pilgrims to first set foot on these shores.

"THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

THEN THEY CAME for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

- Martin Niemoller, January 6, 1946 speech before representatives of the Confessing Church in Frankfurt

(03-24-2010 09:05 AM)Supersport Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-24-2010 08:56 AM)ChrisL68 Wrote: [ -> ]If anything is a problem, it is that we are victims of our own success. The amount of prosperity and freedom we have and the standard of living we enjoy is unparalleled in human history.

That's a pretty big generalization and I'm not sure it's correct. Europe is pretty dang nice. Different in many respects but I could live there. What they don't have is the huge underclass we have here. Ironically a lot of their least educated people came here and made succesful lives because of an opportunity to work in blue collar jobs but that opportunity just isn't here in anywhere near the extent now as it was 100 years ago. I guess our least educated could go to China or Mexico to work.

I was really referring to all current modern governments and societies, as Europe faces all of the same problems we do.

Sadly the goverment does not care they only care about themselves. Here our children is not getting the best eduacation out there. Across America schools are being closed teachers are being cut and classes are being cut. I don't see the job market picking up, into the better days either. The economy still sucks. The goverment cares about one thing and that is themselves. Like Healthcare no one wanted it. But Obama made sure, it got passed,he could care-less about America and the real issues out there.

He only cared about boosting his ego. I see jobs are still failing, schools are failing the children and so on and America failing people are losing their homes to foreclosure. I am so glad that I got out of school when I did 13 years ago. But I am scared for my 3 little nieces and our future. But oh well at least Obama and the goverment does not have to worry about it. That is what all it matters to them. While we suffer getting taxed to death and jobs and losing homes and not getting the best education for our future and it looks like that our freedom and free of speech will be ran by the goverment. A very sad fate for all of us.

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that pretty much summed it all up.

"I love my country. It's the government I'm afraid of."

(03-24-2010 10:23 AM)Goldfish Wrote: [ -> ]I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that pretty much summed it all up.

"I love my country. It's the government I'm afraid of."

Gotta love that bumper sticker. Its so true sadly.

Fred is put in mind of an old Janet Jackson song, "What Have You Done For Me Lately?". In the case of government, Fred can say, "Not a damn thing, except rape the hell out of me & my bank account."

I think that the problem is that we have peaked as a nation. Folks are realizing that they will not have as good a job as their parents had. They will not have a nice, safe pension. They will not be able to work for 30 years for the same company with job security. They wonder if Social Security will be there when they need it. They wonder if they can afford health care. They see friends and neighbors without jobs. They see friends and neighbors with college degrees working at Wal-Mart. They worry about the future of their kids as they more and more good jobs leaving this country and going overseas. They see politicians in Washington that are completely incapable of controlling spending and keeping a budget. They see politicians at all levels that are incapable of dealing with the serious problems that face them. They are worried and scared and with good reason.

But we don't have to have peaked. The peaking is due to structurally aspects of Government. It's not the people, it's the system.

Peaking isn't the problem. It's the symptom.

(03-24-2010 08:56 AM)ChrisL68 Wrote: [ -> ]If anything is a problem, it is that we are victims of our own success. The amount of prosperity and freedom we have and the standard of living we enjoy is unparalleled in human history.

Chris - I definitely agree w/ part of your statement. Even now, our standard of living is something most folks 30 years ago couldn't relate to...

My wife and I have 2 cell phones, we have an IP phone - which allows us to make free long distance calls, we have high speed internet access, we live in a house that cost more than any house they lived in until my Mother bought a house in Raleigh in the Lake Johnson neighborhood in the mid 90s.

However, I think the anti-government comes from being powerless. The Obama administration pretty much told 50% of Americans to stick it where the "sun don't shine". They promise to do more of the same when it comes to energy policy, financial regulations and immigration reform.

Do you remember in 2005 when Bush was pushing Social Security reform. If you recall, he and the Pubs backed down when it clear the public - regardless of whether or not they were properly informed - didn't want this change. And Bush was supposed to be arrogant. Contrast that to the current administration.

I think if Obama had governed from the center rather than staking his claim on Health Care he would be popular. If he had really tried to be bi-partisan, I think he'd be popular.

If he's lucky, he'll be rescued by a Republican Congress who will actually try to reign in spending.

(03-24-2010 12:41 PM)PackLTBuy Wrote: [ -> ]But we don't have to have peaked. The peaking is due to structurally aspects of Government. It's not the people, it's the system.

Peaking isn't the problem. It's the symptom.

agree completely. all we have to do is do what is best for the nation as a whole instead of what is best for China and bankers

it couldnt' be any simpler to fix, which is precisely why it's so difficult to find anyone who will do it. my bet is on Palin. she's the only one with the balls to tell the establishment to take a hike

(03-24-2010 01:17 PM)Supersport Wrote: [ -> ]agree completely. all we have to do is do what is best for the nation as a whole instead of what is best for China and bankers

it couldnt' be any simpler to fix, which is precisely why it's so difficult to find anyone who will do it. my bet is on Palin. she's the only one with the balls to tell the establishment to take a hike

Here's the problem w/ your fix - you have no idea what the unintended consequences are of the trade sanctions.

We talk about textiles - what if people reduced their consumption of clothing by 20%? All you have to do is observe what happened when gasoline prices spiked (Americans cut down significantly on their driving) to see what happens when you increase the price of a good where the consumer can reduce consumption and get by.

(03-24-2010 02:18 PM)choppack Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-24-2010 01:17 PM)Supersport Wrote: [ -> ]agree completely. all we have to do is do what is best for the nation as a whole instead of what is best for China and bankers

it couldnt' be any simpler to fix, which is precisely why it's so difficult to find anyone who will do it. my bet is on Palin. she's the only one with the balls to tell the establishment to take a hike

Here's the problem w/ your fix - you have no idea what the unintended consequences are of the trade sanctions.

We talk about textiles - what if people reduced their consumption of clothing by 20%? All you have to do is observe what happened when gasoline prices spiked (Americans cut down significantly on their driving) to see what happens when you increase the price of a good where the consumer can reduce consumption and get by.

I know what the consequences of outsourcing US jobs to China and Mexico is: 8,000,000 jobs gone, a decade of no job growth and the threat of a bankrupt nation in sight.

the next thing you said is exactly what we need, Americans buying American produced goods, regardless of the fact that they will cost more, because the alternative is what we have right now, cheap imports and 20% unemployment. if you think that is preferable then I suppose you like where we're headed. not me. I'd rather pay more for American products and have a viable economy than one headed where we are

(03-24-2010 05:02 AM)Wolf Wrote: [ -> ]Having said all that, I abhor the examples of idiots and morons you give like Waco, mountain hold-out Rambo's etc. There are extremists in all groups and ideologies.

Yep. And I characterized these as the extremists. Unfortunately, when you ally yourself with a particular cause or movement you have tolerate being associated with the nutjobs that go with it.

(03-24-2010 02:18 PM)choppack Wrote: [ -> ]Here's the problem w/ your fix - you have no idea what the unintended consequences are of the trade sanctions.

chop:

The unintended consequences are inconsequential compared to what is occuring. Free Trade only works when there is some barrier that prefers local trade to offshore trade. The internet and other technological advances have devastated the barriers that allow balance to trade. Over time, there will be virtually no jobs left that cannot be outsourced.

We import more than we export. By a far margin. There's no way that on average we wouldn't be better off if we simply shut down "unbalanced" international trade completely. Sure we have to get some things from other countries. But there's no reason we have to accept a trade deficit.

If you dismantle the Federal Government, adopt non-interventionist foreign policy, return responsibility to the States, and use the Federal Authority to regulate interstate and international commerce to help make certain that each state can maintain a broad-based sustainable economy, we'd be infinitely better off than any future we are heading toward now.

(03-24-2010 06:51 PM)PackLTBuy Wrote: [ -> ]If you dismantle the Federal Government, adopt non-interventionist foreign policy, return responsibility to the States, and use the Federal Authority to regulate interstate and international commerce to help make certain that each state can maintain a broad-based sustainable economy, we'd be infinitely better off than any future we are heading toward now.

I don't understand how you maintain any semblance of Federal Authority after you dismantle the Federal Government.

Also, you are suggesting that the "Commerce Clause" (or something identical) be regulated to the hilt. As an observer on constitutional law I'm sure you realize that's the most invasive application of Federal authority out there.